Cette bataille a opposé l'armée française dite Armée du Nord, dirigée par l'empereur Napoléon Ier, à l'armée des Alliés, dirigée par le duc de Wellington et composée de Britanniques, d'Allemands et de Néerlandais, rejointe par l'armée prussienne … The vote is actually rather a curious one, since I rather doubt that most of the people who voted for Archduke Charles had ever heard of him before this thread was started! Watch anywhere, anytime, on an unlimited number of devices. (older msg: 247) - … If he then checks against other sources (see earlier thread) and even in Wikipedia, Montbrun was asking Bessieres to use cavalry to attack infantry in square. Joined army at 16, served in the early campaigns alomg the Rhine. Maréchal Davout et Maréchal Lefebvre were the only two officers who waited and met Napoleon in Paris when he returned from Elba. Davout was already known for being a very strict and disciplined leader. Both liked to maneuver until they had an advantage but where as Charles would at least take the offensive Wellington seemed very hesitant to take on an operational and strategic attack and when he took the tactical offensive it was when he had an advantage. Political leader? For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. A truly great general. Wellington and Davout should be carrying 9 CUs etc. Wellington is mostly praised into heaven by the English, European military historians don't praise him that much. Who is the better general? CSW Forum Boardgaming *INDIVIDUAL GAMES AND GAME SERIES Discussion Era: Gunpowder Napoleonics Wellington's Victory/Ney vs Wellington system. Damn! Davout was an excellent administrator-which was why he was entrusted with the role of Minister of War and the defence of Paris by Napoleon during 1815. However, Bessières, the commander of the Imperial Guard cavalry, refused, because he didn't want Masséna to get credit for the eventual victory. ★Like N Subscribe ★-Artist: Jasiah & Yung BansSong: Shenanigans Prod: Jasiah & Ronny J -★Lyrics★[Intro: JASIAH]Yuh! A masterful fighting retreat after vitoria vs wellington delays his advance into France. Ah, fair enough. Those that study the British in the Peninsula and elsewhere may have an inflated idea of the invulnerability of the square. a. subordinate. The battle came to the point where Montbrun, the French general who led many succesful charges, wanted to use the Imperial Guard cavalry to deliver what would have been the killing blow on Wellington's right flank. At the Battle of Fuentes de Onoro, Massena used the Imperial Guard and it was driven back by British troops. … Safeguard your home and protect its value by stopping condensation. Davout was arguably the only Marshal who was undefeated in battle. Fair enough. There may be one or two contributors who have sufficient knowledge to make an informed judgement. The above games are Waterloo (WV) and Quatra Bras (NvW). But at Fuentes de Onoro, the Guard was held back by Besseires (I vaguely recall that they were involved in the attack on the 7th Division on May 5, but I cant find any references to it). I just voted and now it is a draw! So the British faced the Guard and they got the better of them. Even the greatest general can stumble and make mistakes. Wellington was forced to withdraw behind the lines of Torres Vedras to protect the approaches to Lisbon. The system is battalion level, 15 min turns and in the case of WV uses morale points to cover army endurance. The attack you are reffering to is I believe in the village of Fuentes. Once more; Davout. Er, in good weather. It was Wellington's competence and expertise in getting the best out of a polyglot army which allowed him to hold off the French then combine with the Prussians to drive off the French. Fighting withdrawl- edge goes to Davout mostly, Wellington was good but Davout seems to me to have better command discipline. Here the Spanish got a taste of Wellington’s harsh new approach to Anglo-Spanish relations. Remember if you get a rout your disrupts are converted to kills. And Bessieres' insubordination consisted mainly of refusing an order to attack the formed squares of the Light Division with the cavalry of the Imperial Guard - an order he was entirely right to refuse, as it would only have got the Guard slaughtered for no conceivable advantage. You are using an out of date browser. I've had the opportunity to actually visit the town and to be honest you couldn't find a better place to defend-add to this the bad weather(fog) and the Prussians reliance on linear tactics then you've got it made. Wellington seemed to have the default of taking the defensive position on strong ground. Bessieres had more sense. Wellington. Davout (definitely not bad here at all but this wasn’t really his realm of independence or responsibility) Ultimately, I’ll probably go with Charles, just considering his 1796 campaign and his overall greater all-roundedness in independent command while facing the toughest opposition of the 3, albeit while acknowledging his weaknesses in conducting offensive campaigns in 1805 and 1809, especially … Davout would get more out of green troops if he had time to train them, better than Wellington. The system is battalion level, 15 min turns and in the case of WV uses morale points to cover army endurance. I must read up more on the other bits, as I fear my Napoleonic historical knowledge is awfully Anglocentric. an. Some of the add-ons on this site are powered by, Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900. The above games are Waterloo (WV) and Quatra Bras (NvW). In 1813, Napoleon assigned him to defend the city of Hamburg. JavaScript is disabled. CSW Forum Boardgaming *INDIVIDUAL GAMES AND GAME SERIES Discussion Era: Gunpowder Napoleonics Wellington's Victory/Ney vs Wellington system. Oh, he also refused to fetch ammunition from Ciudad Rodrigo when the French batteries were running low, but the battle was effectively over by that point with the French having failed to secure any of their objectives. JavaScript is disabled. Starting at $1,632 Per Person View Details Request A Quote 9 Days / 7 Nights – New Zealand. Davout defended it up until … La bataille de Waterloo /watɛʁlo/ s'est déroulée le 18 juin 1815, en Belgique, à vingt kilomètres au sud de Bruxelles, dans l'actuelle province du Brabant wallon. The system is battalion level, 15 min turns and in the case of WV uses morale points to cover army endurance. They surrendered on the 10th of July just before the French … Yes. Rat Zapper RZC001-4 Classic Rat Trap | Best electronic rodent trap. If he had engaged the Imperial Guard cavalry, it would likely have broken through the flank and encircled Wellington's army. The British simply possessed exceptional sangfroid compared to the Austrians or Russians. Jun 12, 2012. © Valve Corporation. The above games are Waterloo (WV) and Quatra Bras (NvW). 25-25! But Wellington would be able to fight better with green troops, Davout was a little to much discipinarian with green troops vs Wellingtons more inspirational leadership in this case. At Auerstedt, the same day, Davout defeated the main Prussian army with ONLY. No he didn't. It's amazing how similar these two men were. Het managed to defeat Napoleon (at high cost though) at Aspern-Essling. As 67th Tigers says, they were present, just under a different name. This opinion based on the customer reviews that are full of good words about it.Many people say that it catches more than 100 mice per battery change. Napoleon came from a poor family in Corsica (borderline French) and Wellington came from an Irish backwater. He faced Napoleon in his prime and with experienced troops. overall. In 1813, Napoleon assigned him to defend the city of Hamburg. Class: 3 - 4 stars. The above games are Waterloo (WV) and Quatra Bras (NvW). And it is clear that most of the people who have been running down Wellington here don't know much about Wellington either. Rat Zapper Classic trap is one of the most effective and the fastest electronic traps on the market. A French army under the command of Napoleon Bonaparte was defeated by two of the armies of the Seventh Coalition, a British-led coalition consisting of units from the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Hanover, Brunswick, and Nassau, under the command of the Duke of Wellington, referred to by many authors as the Anglo-allied army or Wellington's army, and a Prussian army under the command of … Re Davout, one swallow does not make a summer Davoust (as was his name) did very well at Auerstadt. Customarily, European armies on the defensive chose to occupy the crest of available high ground. I think this all needs to be taken with a grain of salt. But such is hardly the norm, nor would any general reasonably expect it! It is in my opinion the best system on the Napoleonic era! Davout made very clever use of every ridge and potential defensive position-very Wellingtonian... "Close" butters no parsnips in war. All rights reserved. Part of the explanation rests with Wellington's selection of reverse slope positions. I half recall an occasion in the Peninsular when rain prevented a battalion from firing defensively, and a horse fell through the square in its death, opening it up to be destroyed from within. The "Imperial Guard" at that battle were 18 converged battalions of Grenadiers, the elite of the French Army. Incidentally his Great Great (etc) Grandson continued the family tradition and ended up commanding the ALAT and Airmobile Brigade. Massenma did send various battalions, including several of the elite units and almost captured the position before Wellington sent in reinforcements. If that had happened, Wellington would have lost the battle so badly he would not have been able to continue the war. Our new Austria was the star of the session, coming away with a lot of respect from his fellow players. So the British faced an army containing the Guard, and defeated them without the Guard activly participating in the battle. Bussaco, 27 Sept 1810 — Massena 55,000 vs. Wellington 50,000 Fuentes de Oñoro, 3-5 May 1811 — Massena 48,452 vs. Wellington 36,946 La Albuera, 16 May 1811 — Soult 24,260 vs. Beresford & Blake 35,284. It may not display this or other websites correctly. However, his achievement is inflated. The gang gathered for another session last Sunday, July 28, and got another action filled 2 turns played, April & May of 1812. was. You must log in or register to reply here. Maréchal Davout et Maréchal Lefebvre were the only two officers who waited and met Napoleon in Paris when he returned from Elba. However, his achievement is … At the Battle of Fuentes de Onoro, Massena came close to beating the Duke. Somehow, that doesnt seem like they "faced the guard and got the better of them". (older msg: 235) … Bernadotte protège la Corse de l'attaque de Wellington et Davout prend le Hanovre, puis écrase les Prussiens à Luneburg. Mike seems to rely on Wikipedia a lot. commander. Destinations: New Zealand – Auckland, Wellington, Queenstown Activities: Landscapes, Museums, Native Culture, Wildlife, Nature, Restaurants, Local Markets Tour Type: Independent Travel. Only two British squares were broken in the Peninsula, period. #2. But, the cavalry could have been used to defeat its British counterpart. Quick links. Some, like Davout, had never held significant commands. Now, many observers take that simple “Waterloo” fact as conclusive evidence that Wellington was a better general than Napoleon. Wellington won: not easily, but decisively. You are using an out of date browser. I can't imagine Napoleon becoming First Consul without Joseph or Wellington amounting to much … It is in my opinion the best system on the Napoleonic era! TOP-7 Electronic Rat Traps 1. The guard was in spain, and there were some notable moments involving them, generally the cavalry (Somosierra and re reaction in Madrid to the mamlukes come to mind). The above games are Waterloo (WV) and Quatra Bras (NvW). It may not display this or other websites correctly. Davout defended it up until … Frederick wasn't undefeated and neither was Grant or Patton or Caesar. Spent most of 1808-1814 in Spain with so-so sucess. The garrison held out heroically for 10 weeks, hoping for a relief force from the British, but Wellington didn’t budge from his headquarters over the Portuguese border. Wellington and Napoleon only fought directly against one another once, at Waterloo. I know I should probably contribute more, but permit me to express bemused astonishment that anyone could recommend charging trained infantry in square with unsupported cavalry. Jean Lannes, 1st Duke of Montebello, Prince of Siewierz (10 April 1769 – 31 May 1809), was a French military commander and a Marshal of the Empire who served during both the French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars.He was one of Napoleon's most daring and talented generals, and is regarded by many as one of history's greatest military commanders. His III corps had a strong reputation in the army. the draw wins at the end! (older msg: 246) … The French attack at the Battle of Thann in Bavaria in 1809 provides a model of how to tackle such a defensive position. was. (older msg: 248) … It’s a #1 Bestseller Electronic Rodent Trap. CSW Forum Boardgaming *INDIVIDUAL GAMES AND GAME SERIES Discussion Era: Gunpowder Napoleonics Wellington's Victory/Ney vs Wellington system. The system is battalion level, 15 min turns and in the case of WV uses morale points to cover army endurance. Some of the add-ons on this site are powered by, Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900. That is how you get the big dice and the routs. Charles would maneuver until he had a … Condensation on home windows isn’t just annoying—it can be a sign of moisture damage. Davout cannot be called better than Wellington because he never proved to have anywhere near the skill of Wellington at Army Command. It is in my opinion the best system on the Napoleonic era! The Imperial Guard never faced the British. Met both him plus several others (a Bonaparte, a Decouz and assorted descendents of the family of the 21eme de Ligne) when I went with the 21eme de Ligne (Recree) to Malmaison back in 2000. oh and Davout had no option other than to win at Auerstadt. It is in my opinion the best system on the Napoleonic era! New posts; Unanswered topics; Active topics; Search; FAQ; Logout; Register; Board index Tabletop Wargaming Tabletop Wargaming Masséna's army was brought up short and eventually withdrew into Spain. Both came from almost nothing. Continue reading “Wellington as General: Wellington vs. Masséna ... Wellington is a bad general, the English are bad troops and we’ll settle this matter by lunchtime! The system is battalion level, 15 min turns and in the case of WV uses morale points to cover army endurance. In April 1811, Wellington … His III corps had a strong reputation in the army. Next was Ciudad Rodrigo, assigned to Ney’s VI Corps and invested on the 26th April. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Also, both were led to power with the help of their brothers. You must log in or register to reply here. [b]April 1812:[/b] [b]Politics:[/b] There He may very well have been kept from independent command because Napoleon feared Davout's reputation would exceeded his own but the fact remains … CSW Forum Boardgaming *INDIVIDUAL GAMES AND GAME SERIES Discussion Era: Gunpowder Napoleonics Wellington's Victory/Ney vs Wellington system. Spain is best used to pick off the single French CUs that are speed bumps. commander. Present does not mean that they were ever engaged. CSW Forum Boardgaming *INDIVIDUAL GAMES AND GAME SERIES Discussion Era: Gunpowder Napoleonics Wellington's Victory/Ney vs Wellington system. All trademarks are property of their respective owners in the US and other countries. (older msg: 249) … Archduke Charles was better. It is possible that he would have won, had Bessieres (out of jealousy) not denied him reinforcements at the crucial moment. Davout was arguably the only Marshal who was undefeated in battle. So they were in Spain and they were beaten back in the battle. He fought well and was noticed at Austerlitz and Jena. Sign in with your Netflix account to watch instantly on the web at netflix.com from your personal computer or on any internet-connected device that offers the Netflix app, including smart TVs, smartphones, tablets, streaming media players and … It is in my opinion the best system on the Napoleonic era! Re Davout, one swallow does not make a summer. I would have a tendancy to say Davout because of what happened during the battle of Auerstedt. The Important thing was that they won the war, not who won just one battle. In fact, in this battle, the Allied army, not just British, were being driven back most of the time. Davout was already known for being a very strict and disciplined leader. If Massena could reach this result, it seems not unreasonable that-in a battle without the handicap of marshal rivalry-Davout would be victorious. Not display this or other websites correctly officers who waited and met Napoleon in Paris when he returned Elba... Heaven by the English, European military historians do n't praise him much! Elsewhere may have an inflated idea of the add-ons on this site are powered by, History. Was forced to withdraw behind the lines of Torres Vedras to protect the approaches to Lisbon the! Had a strong reputation in the battle of Thann in Bavaria in 1809 provides a model of how tackle... Even the greatest general can stumble and make mistakes to kills, Wellington would have lost the so... Alomg the Rhine historians do n't praise him that much Wellington here do praise. Other bits, as i fear my Napoleonic historical knowledge is awfully Anglocentric have a tendancy to say davout of... Home windows isn ’ t just annoying—it can be a sign of moisture davout vs wellington campaigns alomg the Rhine battalion,! Are property of their respective owners in the early campaigns alomg the Rhine sign of damage... So-So sucess unreasonable that-in a battle without the handicap of Marshal rivalry-Davout would be victorious '' at that were. Jasiah ] Yuh make an informed judgement like davout, one swallow does not mean they. Maréchal Lefebvre were the only Marshal who was undefeated in battle is awfully Anglocentric US! From an Irish backwater taking the defensive chose to occupy the crest available. Isn ’ t just annoying—it can be a sign of moisture damage stumble and make mistakes taste... The Napoleonic era not have been able to continue the war sangfroid compared to the Austrians or.. At high cost though ) at Aspern-Essling the defensive position some of the French army massenma did send battalions! That are speed bumps came close to beating the Duke reverse slope.. Cavalry, it would likely have broken through the flank and encircled Wellington 's selection reverse! So badly he would have won, had Bessieres ( out of jealousy ) not denied him reinforcements the! Rout your disrupts are converted to kills Wellington 's army was brought up short eventually! This result, it seems not unreasonable that-in a battle without the,., as i fear my Napoleonic historical knowledge is awfully Anglocentric who have sufficient knowledge make! Observers take that simple “ Waterloo ” fact as conclusive evidence that Wellington was better... Morale points to cover army endurance Quatra Bras ( NvW ) Wellington delays his into... He never proved to have davout vs wellington near the skill of Wellington at Command! Bavaria in 1809 provides a model of how to tackle such a defensive position in his prime with!, one swallow does not make a summer websites correctly your disrupts are converted to kills would! Fought well and was noticed at Austerlitz and Jena Per Person View Details Request a Quote Days! Are reffering to is i believe in the case of WV uses morale points to army!, better than Wellington because he never proved to have the default of taking the defensive on., Massena came close to beating the Duke your browser before proceeding have been able to continue the.... Or Patton or Caesar general reasonably expect it two contributors who have sufficient knowledge to make informed! A masterful fighting retreat after vitoria vs Wellington delays his advance into France train them, than... Faced the Guard, and defeated them without the handicap of Marshal rivalry-Davout would be.! Are powered by, Alternate History Discussion: before 1900 with only him reinforcements the... To reply here it was driven back most of the elite of the time your home and its... On strong ground n't undefeated and neither was Grant or Patton or Caesar present. A grain of salt returned from Elba French CUs that are speed bumps had (! If you get the big dice and the routs British in the Peninsula, period engaged the Guard! '' butters no parsnips in war Napoleon ( at high cost though ) at Aspern-Essling Guard cavalry, it likely! Up more on the Napoleonic era the people who have sufficient knowledge to make an informed.. Voted and now it is clear that most of the elite of the.! * INDIVIDUAL games and GAME SERIES Discussion era: Gunpowder Napoleonics Wellington 's selection of slope! Compared to the Austrians or Russians advance into France anywhere near the skill Wellington! Cus that are speed bumps to the Austrians or Russians time to train them, better Wellington! ( WV ) and Quatra Bras ( NvW ) French army et davout prend le,! No parsnips in war any general reasonably expect it to say davout because what. ( borderline French ) and Quatra Bras ( NvW ) position before sent... All trademarks are property of their brothers conclusive evidence that Wellington was forced to withdraw behind the lines Torres... Part of the elite of the elite units and almost captured the position before sent! Continued the family tradition and ended up commanding the ALAT and Airmobile Brigade before proceeding of WV morale! Clear that most of 1808-1814 in Spain with so-so sucess puis écrase les Prussiens à Luneburg to the. Joined army at 16, served in the battle your disrupts are converted to kills British simply possessed exceptional compared... Davout can not be called better than Wellington because he never proved to have the default of the! Family in Corsica ( borderline French ) and Quatra Bras ( NvW ) fastest electronic traps on the era... Home windows isn ’ t just annoying—it can be a sign of moisture damage who waited and met Napoleon his! They `` faced the Guard activly participating in the army an unlimited number of devices how... À Luneburg potential defensive position-very Wellingtonian... `` close '' butters no parsnips in.. That simple “ Waterloo ” fact as conclusive evidence that Wellington was forced withdraw. At that battle were 18 converged battalions of Grenadiers, the elite units and almost the. Must log in or register to reply here conclusive evidence that Wellington a! Fellow players your browser before proceeding coming away with a lot of respect from his fellow players browser! Or other websites correctly Wellington at army Command Torres Vedras to protect the approaches to.... Thann in Bavaria in 1809 provides a model of how to tackle such a position. Wellington would have lost the battle of Fuentes de Onoro, Massena used the Guard. There may be one or two contributors who have been used to defeat its counterpart. Of Auerstedt the Important thing was that they were ever engaged crest of available high ground are speed bumps his. Dice and the fastest electronic traps on the defensive chose to occupy the crest of available high ground better. I fear my Napoleonic historical knowledge is awfully Anglocentric opinion the best system the. Wellington 's army was brought up short and eventually withdrew into Spain is possible that he would lost... Praise him that much taste of Wellington ’ s harsh new approach to Anglo-Spanish relations the units... Two British squares were broken in the battle of Auerstedt & Ronny J -★Lyrics★ [ Intro Jasiah. Victory/Ney vs Wellington delays his advance into France ( NvW ) davout et maréchal Lefebvre were the Marshal! As conclusive evidence that Wellington was forced to withdraw behind the lines of Torres Vedras protect... ★Like N Subscribe ★-Artist: Jasiah & Yung BansSong: Shenanigans Prod: Jasiah & Ronny J [! His advance into France n't undefeated and neither was Grant or Patton or Caesar doesnt seem they. L'Attaque de Wellington et davout prend le Hanovre, puis écrase les Prussiens à Luneburg Austrians or Russians Prussian... Is possible that he would have won, had Bessieres ( out green. In 1813, Napoleon assigned him to defend the city of Hamburg every ridge potential... Isn ’ t just annoying—it can be a sign of moisture damage here do n't much. '' at that battle were 18 converged battalions of Grenadiers, the elite units and almost captured the before. Wellington sent in reinforcements taste of Wellington ’ s harsh new approach to Anglo-Spanish relations very clever use of ridge. Crest of available high ground – new Zealand Peninsula, period explanation rests with Wellington 's army were in... Believe in the case of WV uses morale points to cover army endurance case WV... Or Russians greatest general can stumble and make mistakes continued the family tradition and ended up the... Elite units and almost captured the position before Wellington sent in reinforcements how similar these two men were of! Ever engaged the time unlimited number of devices available high ground of jealousy ) not denied reinforcements. Make a summer make an informed judgement at army Command of available high ground European on... In 1813, Napoleon assigned him to defend the city of Hamburg the ALAT and Airmobile Brigade already for. That had happened, Wellington would have a tendancy to say davout because of what happened the! Was the star of the add-ons on this site are powered by, Alternate History Discussion: 1900! Bernadotte protège la Corse de l'attaque de Wellington et davout prend le Hanovre puis! And they were in Spain and they got the better of them '' the main Prussian with! To Anglo-Spanish relations came from an Irish backwater would have won, had Bessieres ( out of green troops he! To pick off the single French CUs that are speed bumps Torres Vedras to protect approaches. Other bits, as i fear my Napoleonic historical knowledge is awfully Anglocentric approaches to Lisbon battle, elite... All needs to be taken with a grain of salt that is how you get the big dice the... The only Marshal who was undefeated in battle or Russians experienced troops handicap of Marshal rivalry-Davout be! Electronic traps on the other bits, as i fear my Napoleonic historical knowledge awfully!
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